Juan Vaca, Netflix’s first narrative designer, gives us his thoughts on why interactive content is taking off lately. He also details how his gaming background influences his storytelling, why he thinks of his audience as players instead of viewers, and what exactly goes into making an interactive movie or TV show at Netflix.

Juan Vaca: One of the things that we have is a platform and a way to share a global perspective and connect humans around the world through entertainment. I feel like interactivity in storytelling, with this guided principle, is the next elevation of storytelling. Right now, I am in control of the story that I want to hear and tell and live vicariously, because that's what we're doing when we're watching movies, right? We're connecting with the characters.

Jamin Warren: Hi, I'm Jamin Warren, and this is the 256 Podcast. 256 is a marketing agency that prepares brands for the future of play and interactivity. We spend a lot of time talking to clients and partners about games, so we thought, "What if we brought more of those conversations to more people?"

To give you a little bit of background on the name, 256 is the agency side of a magazine I created almost 10 years ago called Kill Screen. In 8-bit games like Pac-Man and others, level 256 has a bug that floods the screen with numbers and letters so that you can't play past it. I was so inspired by that, and also the movie The King of Kong, that I called our magazine Kill Screen. Get it? All right, now on to our guest.

Juan Vaca is the first narrative designer at Netflix and has eight years of experience in the gaming world. Prior to that, he held the same position at Telltale Games, a game studio known for its story-first approach. If you're not sure what a narrative designer does, you're not alone. It's a role that typically exists in game development, not in TV and film. But I'll let Juan explain his role at Netflix himself.

Juan Vaca: So, I've been a narrative designer, and people say, "Well, what's that?" I've tried different things. I've tried saying I'm a story designer, or a story consultant, or a branching narrative consultant. My most recent one that I've been telling people when I tell them I'm a narrative designer is, I'm a creative consultant, and I help support our content partners tell their stories through interactive, branching narratives. I support them in the long term of what their holistic view of their story is going to be, as well as giving them tips on the things that I've learned along my time.

Jamin Warren: So how does that process work? How do you assist them in realizing that vision?

Juan Vaca: I am in the post-greenlight state. So I start as early as the story room and the writers room, and I start thinking, "Okay, well, what are the things that really make this not just a great story, but a great interactive story?" What are the places in the story that the character can make decisions—or the player/viewer—all together make decisions to really influence the shape of the story? And how wide can we go with the branches? And by that, I mean how different are they? What are the choices that can really change and affect the flow of the story so that every experience feels different, but every experience is still fulfilling?

Jamin Warren: That's very interesting because not all choices are significant. What are you looking for in a plot to say, "Oh, that's a choice that's going to yield a lot of interesting outcomes, and that's a choice that's very boring," right? That's not going to be very interesting for players.

Juan Vaca: Right. Well, I mean, I could tell you the secret of my sauce... but you can't have them all be life-or-death choices. So, understanding storytelling, pacing, and structure will tell you: "Okay, these are the moments that we need to build to and then have a weighty decision." And maybe later down the line, we're not really making decisions, but the story is pivoting, and the story is changing based upon the decisions that we've already made.

Jamin Warren: I was curious, do you think of the audience for interactive storytelling... do you think of them as viewers, or do you think of them as players?

Juan Vaca: So, I think of them as players. I think we're still in a place where the format is so new that we're still trying to define that language. But I think the second that you create interactivity and it becomes active instead of passive, you now step into the role of the player, the character, the driver.

I think that by creating these more accessible stories and interactivity, people will begin to not only realize that gaming is fun but that they've been gaming this entire time. Your mom might play a match-three game, some Candy Crush, but she'll never consider herself a gamer. My parents—I watch my dad play not even Candy Crush, but some match-three alternative. But he would never say, "I'm a gamer." He would never pick up a piece...

This is actually really helpful to me because I've worked in games for about seven years now, and I've worked with names that I'm proud of, like Batman, The Walking Dead, Minecraft. But my parents don't get it. They're immigrants, they're older, they don't have access to a Steam account, they're not going to download the app and DLC on their phone. But they still don't quite understand what I do. And they're still proud of me, and they're just like, "Yeah, it's mijo. He's great. He does game stuff."

And I think now is the time where we can put that in their hands. The next thing that I want to do is I want to make a game for my parents—something that is accessible and understandable by all.

Jamin Warren: That access piece is just so powerful in terms of no longer needing to be constrained by this big upfront commitment to demonstrate that you're someone who plays. In a global context, I think one of the things that we forget about video games also is that access to video games has not been evenly distributed. It tends to be something that's popular in the United States, North America, obviously in Western Europe, Japan, Korea—typically wealthier, high-technology places. And one of the missions for Netflix has been to make the product available to all of these different countries.

I was curious, how do you see the stories that you're creating meeting or catering to a global audience? Because you're now in all of these other countries that traditionally for games have been maybe a bit more difficult to break into.

Juan Vaca: Absolutely. Our mission at Netflix is to entertain the world. And we need a global perspective in order to do that. And in order to have that global perspective, you need that diversity and inclusion in the people that are making it. You need the people in the room to say, "Hey, I don't think this is why that works." But also have a culture where it's okay to say stuff like that. And it's like, "Okay, we need to respect and abide by those differences that make us unique." But at the same time understand that those differences are also the things that make us strong and the things that allow ourselves to be represented on screen properly and in the right manners.

So we are very delicate with the stories that we tell and the things that we put on screen because we want to give the best engagement and experience for everyone, regardless of where you are. Regardless of whether you're on a phone or a 65-inch TV, or if you're in a third-world country, a first-world country, or wherever.

Jamin Warren: Are there certain genres that kind of work better or lend themselves more easily to an interactive experience?

Juan Vaca: I've worked on mysteries, dramas, thrillers, romance stories, comedies... teen... I've done a lot. And they all lend themselves to interactivity differently. In a thriller, you probably are trying to escape from the big bad that's after you, or survival is your primal instinct. Whereas something with, you know, a teen drama, it's really about socializing and making friends and building those relationships. And in a romance, it's really about maneuvering conversation so you get to know someone and build that trust if you are interested in them romantically.

I think every genre has its potential for interactivity. And I think if we think about it the other way and we say, "Oh, we only make action stuff because it's easy for quick-time events," we kind of do a disservice to what entertainment as a whole can be. Like, there are certain gaps that we should be filling. There are so many stories to tell that haven't been told.

Jamin Warren: What kind of challenges are there in getting people to consume interactive content? Because I think in the past, one of the barriers to people playing games—and marketing to people who play games—is just that word "game." Like, "Oh, I'm not someone who plays video games." I think mobile game makers have been very successful in transcending that, not having people necessarily have to self-identify as quote-unquote "gamers."

What are some of the challenges around some of the stuff that you do in terms of getting people like your parents, for example, to essentially play a game, but without telling them, "You're doing this because it's a game"?

Juan Vaca: I think the very first thing is signaling and identifying the experience that you're about to have. Nobody likes surprises that aren't good for them. And if you're not wanting to be engaged in an active story, like an interactive story, it could throw you off. It's like, "Oh, now I gotta do this thing? I didn't want to do that. I just wanted to Netflix and binge. I just wanted to lean back." We spend our days sometimes so consumed by the things that we do that at the end of the day, we don't want to engage; we want to detach and just rest.

So for us, part of the challenge has been merchandising it up front. Letting you know, "Hey, there's something special about this one. And if you're curious enough about it, you can engage."

Then the second part is really working with the storytellers to create prompts essentially—questions, moments of call and response—waiting for the player to do something. So that very first choice has to be engaging because, for somebody, this might be the very first time that they've ever played anything. So it's making sure that it's very clear what they're being asked to do, that it's compelling, and that they want to do that as well.

And then at the end, when they click on the button that they want to, making sure that we fulfill that promise. Making sure that it's exactly what they said, because that moment of feedback is your very first impression. And we have to make sure that that's a gratifying experience because we want you to continue doing that for the rest of the content that we've made for you.

Jamin Warren: Cool. So based on your experience—and you've got all this great experience in games and in interactive storytelling—what do you tell people who are interested in the space? Because we hear a lot from companies and brands that are interested in interactive storytelling but really don't know where to start. What do you say to them? What advice do you give them?

Juan Vaca: I think the number one thing that I would suggest is to go after stories that haven't been told yet. It's really easy to make sequels and make ongoing franchises. That's what people want to do. They want to... it is a business at the end of the day. So people need to make sure that the product that they make sells, or gets subscriptions, or people are buying whatever the in-app currency is for that progression.

But I think that leaves people in the margins with some really amazing stories. And when we exclude them, we're kind of also excluding, in a business sense, a customer base. But if you don't think of it as a reason to get their money, but rather as... everyone needs to be seen and represented in media. So I think one of the important things is to try to tell those stories that haven't been told, with characters that haven't been seen, in places that we haven't been. I think there's a lot of curiosity and empathy that can be attributed to telling stories from the margins.

That would be my suggestion and advice for them. It may not sell, and it may not be what they want to do, but I guarantee you that there will be an audience.

Jamin Warren: One of the things that's really exciting to me, particularly as someone who's grown up playing video games, is seeing these conversations around interactive content. Some of the design process, some of the mechanics, some of the thinking around making games is working its way out into the wider world. That said, I mean, should every company be thinking about interactivity just because it's the big thing to do right now?

Juan Vaca: I think interactivity, as game development has shown, is a very hard process. It is high risk, but it's also high reward. A lot of people getting into it are doing it for the first time. And so they might not understand all the work that it takes to get in. I definitely didn't when I got into games. I didn't realize how big the pipeline was. But that's why it takes two to three years for these games to come out. Sometimes even more. And that's just the production cycle.

I think everything does have a potential to be interactive. Everything has a story behind it. Everything can be branched. But maybe this is also me because this is the filter that I have on my glasses. I'm always thinking story. I'm always connecting dots. Sometimes they're not there, but that's just how my mind works.

So I think it is possible. I think if you really want to do it, then you have to do it right, because games require one, so much work, but also an understanding of psychology and player base and what people want to do.

And a lot of times when people are making content, they don't think about what the player is doing. They're very egocentric and they're like, "Well, this is my story. This is what I want to do." And it's like, "Right, but you gotta tell it for someone else." The player is ultimately who you're making it for. Because the second that they feel like, "Oh, this is no longer my story, this is someone else's story," that's where they're going to disconnect. And if they disconnect—whether it's because you didn't make it the right way or any other facets—that's where we kind of lose as a whole. We lose out on stories, we lose out on customers, we lose out on people taking this entertainment seriously.

Jamin Warren: Yeah. Well, Juan, thank you so much for coming in.

Juan Vaca: Oh, absolutely. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Jamin Warren: And thanks to all our listeners for checking out the first season of the 256 Podcast, where we talk about the future of play and interactivity. This podcast is produced by Tricia Tonco with help from Anthony Martinez and music by Lucine. If you like this show, please share it with people. And please leave us a rating on iTunes or wherever it is that you listen.

We'll be back in a few months with a brand new season. But in the meantime, please let us know what you think of the show, and let's stay in touch. You can find me, Jamin Warren, on Twitter at @JaminWar. I feel like I'm leaving an order at Starbucks. You can also find 256—that's spelled out—on Twitter and at 256podcast.co where you can sign up for our newsletter. Thanks so much, and take care.